UHF radio control for submarines (openLRS, LoRa, FSK etc. on 458Mhz and 433Mhz )

Thanks Tim! Great answer.

Over to you, Fred!

David

Hi

Thank you all for the info, I will be having a look at all the links and then take it from there.

there appears to be a new manufacturer that is making a setup for JR style modules and receivers:

"Wolfbox"

http://www.banggood.com/Wolfbox-1000mW-1W-433MHz-UHF-Transmitter-Tx-100mW-Receiver-Rx-Compatible-with-X9D-X12S-9XR-TH9X-p-1051206.html

this is the only listing i have seen so far, and it doesn't allow you to buy just a RX, only available product is this combo setup. good for a beginner that wants to try "433", but bad for those of us that simply want to grab a couple RX.


don't know yet if i want to order this or not.

I have had an email from HobbyKing saying that the OrangeRx Open LRS 433MHz 9Ch Receiver is now back in stock,

Deep Diver (Fred) wrote:I have had an email from HobbyKing saying that the  OrangeRx Open LRS 433MHz 9Ch Receiver is now back in stock,

either they got 1 in stock and immediately sold it, or there was a huge backlog of pent-up demand.  I looked about 6 hours after you posted this, and they were already out of stock again.

That's bad news!

I've just ordered another couple of Rx's on backorder to encourage them to keep on making the lovely things!

I will post up on here when I get them. (Supposed to be 30 days for a backorder, let's see.)


David

I have just had a look at the International site and it is saying ten in stock,

I still have 15 day's before the 30 day's are up for delivery so fingers crossed and it come soon.

I have just had a email from Hobbyking saying that my order has just been posted.

(Maybe there are no supply problems? I will post on here when I actually get my hot little hands on the Rxs.)


David

The two Hobbyking RXs I ordered arrived on 6/10/2016.

So ordered on 14/9/2016 that's about 22 days so not bad for the back order system.

So it is good to see that Hobbyking are still a good and low-cost supplier.

Without suppliers we would be back to the original problem we have with 40Mhz.

David

so,

much like the 458mhz frequency in britain, the 915mhz frequency has fewer restrictions on it than the 433mhz i have been playing with. It also appears to be the only frequency available for use of any kind in canada. knowing that the HopeRF frequency chips on these devices actually are available at 433mhz, 868mhz, and 915mhz, i have been trying for 2 years now to find someone that makes a 915mhz version of the OpenLRS TX modules and receivers. I have tried to simply "convert" an existing 433mhz set to 915mhz, but so far haven't had any luck. I was about to make my own DIY set using an arduino and some discrete components, but two manufacturers now sell 915mhz versions. I have received and tested a set sold by OrangeRX (hobbyking). It is very much designed for Multi-rotor aircraft... to the point where it is set from the factory to only handle telemetry coming from a specific brand of Multi-rotor main control unit, and it is designed from a hardware angle to only send PPM data to an MCU. there are no servo connections on the receiver. knowing all this, i was still able to connect a PPM to PWM converter board so that i could hook up standard servos, and tested it for the first time today in my Delta submarine. I did order the second set of TX and RX from the other manufacturer, and they are due to arrive in 3 weeks...

you can see from the following youtube link, that basic telemetry is still being collected by the TX module, because it "beeps" when packets are lost, and at times, it is beeping at a very high rate. I would guess that i am running the Delta at a depth of 6" to 12", which means that 915mhz is not nearly as good as the 433/458 frequency, but is still much better than 2.4ghz. Also note that i am using the bone stock OrangeRX antennas, which appear to be identical to their 433mhz antennas, which can't be good. more testing on that needs to be done.

the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3GXisx5150


the link to the hobbyking equipment...
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/orangerx-openlrsng-915mhz-system-bt-tx-rx-combo.html

note that it is available in both 433mhz and 915mhz, and that it has bluetooth capability... this might be a choice for the brits who want elaborate telemetry, using this android app on a tablet or phone, displaying telemetry in a much more defined way than the now impossible to find FLD-02 display. reflashing this new 433mhz TX module with standard openlrsng firmware should allow it to work with the existing 433mhz receivers, but also give you the bluetooth capability... also something to look into.

Hi Tim,

I learned a new expression a few day's back that is apropriate to use here.

This again is some first class "yeoman's work".
You keep pushing this stuff to new levels and are willing to share it too.

Respect Tim.

Grtz,
Bart

Bart,  thanks for the compliment...

at times i wonder if the model submarine community has gotten soft over the years, there doesn't really appear to be any more individuals out there that are willing to spend the time and energy to try new things.  they all seem to want museum quality boats that are ready to run right out of the box, or are unwilling to look outside their little walled community and see what the rest of the hobby has already done, and try to make it work here.

i wish i was better at SMD level soldering... perhaps with a little more practice, i might be able to accomplish some of these things on my own... i have been wanting to try the 915mhz stuff for as long as i have been using the 433mhz stuff.  I knew it was possible, but my feeble skills at removing the 433mhz components limited my testing until manufacturers were willing to sell it.

there are others out there making there own DIY circuit boards and RF modules from discrete components.  I may end up using their designs and making my own equipment if the next batch of transmitters and receivers are as limited as these 915mhz parts i just tested.  i will know more soon.

You are right, Tim! The problem is that most model submariners are a bit elderly and are reluctant to learn new technology.

Maybe the "investment" isn't seen as worth it for the few years you have left!

Personally I am so impressed by what microprocessors can do nowadays. When I think how much I paid for a single transistor in my teens. Now you get millions in a tiny package. Software rather than hardware is actually much easier in my view.

Interesting that you are looking at 915Mhz. A quick check indicates that we don't have that for r/c in the UK. I count ourselves lucky that someone way back allocated 458Mhz.

David

david f wrote:
Interesting that you are looking at 915Mhz. A quick check indicates that we don't have that for r/c in the UK. I count ourselves lucky that someone way back allocated 458Mhz.

David

I am investigating the 915mhz equipment because in the north american region (USA and Canada), it does not require the Ham Technicians license that the 433mhz equipment does. one of the excuses many of the people who refuse to use 433mhz claim as a hindrance. its kind of like the 458mhz block in the UK. I would have tried it first, but nobody has made commercial OpenLRS hardware using it until now*. Canada specifically does not allow use of 433mhz outside of medical/emergency equipment, so for canadians, 915mhz would be their only available option...

*there is one company called TBS that has made a system called "Crossfire" for over a year now, which uses 915mhz, but a simple Transmitter module and receiver combo from them is almost $300, versus the $80 (including shipping) i paid for the OrangeRX 915mhz openLRSng combo set i bought for these tests. It is also a proprietary protocol with zero support from anyone outside of TBS, and TBS will not warrant its use for anything but aircraft.

the second set of 915mhz R/C gear has arrived... two weeks ahead of schedule... which bodes well for this seller.

it is a brand known as "ChipLRS", not sure of its pedigree, but ran across it on the OpenLRSng thread on rcgroups.com, when i complained there that nobody sold stuff on 915mhz... the russian ebay seller i bought this from sent me a PM saying that they were more than happy to make them in 915mhz versions...



the transmitter module and receiver did not come with antennas, so i will be making some for myself, i will be attempting to build dipole antennas for these, i have space for what will end up being about 7.5 cm on a side, with the two sides being parallel, so the whole antenna will be about 15cm long.. for those that don't speak metric, that would be about 6" long. more than small enough to fit inside my Delta's WTC, or hanging off the back of the transmitter. I am building dipole antennas because they supposedly have better output. I will test them with both the OrangeRX equipment and the ChipLRS equipment. the ChipLRS equipment is more like the traditional 433mhz equipment than the OrangeRX, but it still has its oddities. I will need to make a small breadboard converter that allows me to attach standard servos to the receiver. it is simply a converter that switches from the limited pinouts on the receiver to the more traditional servo style connectors... the ChipLRS receiver only has two 5v and GND pins, instead of one pair for each servo. It also has all the pins for basic telemetry and battery voltage to get returned to the transmitter, so i will be able to test this with the simplest of tools... the actual RSSI/TSSI values returned by the telemetry. the OrangeRX 915mhz receiver is made to fit in a multi-rotor, with an APM-flight control module, so it has a SINGLE pin that spits out PPM or s-bus... i had to use a PPM to PWM converter to use that receiver in the initial testing, and had now documentation stating how to set up telemetry... which by default the OrangeRX 915mhz equipment is set up to use MAVLINK style telemetry which is again, used in the multi-rotors, but nowhere else....

Hopefully this ChipLRS stuff will work out better than the OrangeRX stuff did.

For anyone still following this thread, i have a little bit of news to report, and a completely off-topic tangent that kind of explains why it has been a month and a half since last posting any updates...

I have not been able to spend a lot of time testing the new ChipLRS receiver and transmitter for two reasons...

1) the Norbert Brüggen Delta that is my test mule has blown out its pump... i need to get some time to swap in the spare unit that i have, but this requires a small amount of "machining" since the spare is not identical to the original.
2) i got side-tracked with the construction of a new transmitter... r/c groups transmitter thread  I will be using it the next time i test the 915mhz equipment in the Delta.

I did get time to test the ChipLRS 915mhz equipment once with the Delta before its pump died, and the equipment did work as well as it could given the limited testing i was able to perform...  i did not get any video of the run, but i do like it better than the OrangeRX 915mhz equipment originally purchased.   The ChipLRS equipment does work correctly, with zero alterations, with the standard configuration tools (configurator chrome browser app) after i get the Delta running, i hope to get the ChipLRS equipment running with telemetry.

To continue with the ongoing testing of the 915mhz equipment, i have rebuilt the pump on the Delta test mule, i have "opened" my "submarine testing facility" (10' long horse trough) and have been able to test the ChipLRS transmitter module and receiver. the receiver required a small amount of hardware modification to allow me to use standard servos with it (it is mainly designed for multi-rotor use) but the modification was somewhat simple, i will post pictures here when able. In the testing, i was able to get the system to go the full 2 foot depth of the testing facility, so it seems to have reasonable range.

in addition, i have figured out how to setup my transmitter so that it can properly display the telemetry data coming back from the analog voltage sensors, as well as the RX and ground pin needed for the more advanced telemetry functions that plugging an arduino into the system would allow. I am already set for displaying main battery voltage, but should be able to display depth, temps, and RPM with a little more work.

an interesting development has occurred, FrSky has announced, but is not yet shipping a 900/868mhz transmitter module and receiver ( http://fpvlab.com/forums/showthread.php?51594-FrSky-R9-R9M-module-900Mhz-(868Mhz-EU)-Long-range-system )that should be legal without major restriction or licensing for both Europe and USA. pricing and general availability has not yet been announced, but insiders claim $100 to $150 and late june as target pricing and timing. If it does actually come to be, i will definitely buy one of those for testing.

as it is, i plan on purchasing two more of the ChipLRS receivers for my two smaller submarines, these Russian gadgets actually perform well enough to go onto the second stage of testing.

A horse trough is a new test tank to me, Tim!

I sort of hope that the 900 MHz equipment is not going to become the norm? (Because in the UK at least, 458 is very good for model submariners.)

I must qualify that by saying that I didn't see any more people using 458 at Bournville recently. People are just happy to carry on using 40 Mhz because they already have it and it works.

David

PS

Some notes I made on another thread which may help beginners to openLRS 458Mhz:

"The 3.3v Dongle is available from Sparkfun:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9873

I wouldn't give up on openLRS. The equipment is quite cheap and very compact (with no soldering required) so buy it and have a play with it over the winter. You do need a PC or laptop and to be reasonably confident with them.

Remember that the equipment will work "out of the box" (On 433Mhz with an earlier version of openLRS) so have a play with it before you upload the more up to date software and set it for the UK legal frequency of 458 Mhz.

The guy that started the whole openLRS thing for model submarines (Tim S) has just posted a useful guide on Youtube."

David,

a few things to add to this...

1)  FrSky has now announced that they will be selling an 868/915mhz transmitter module and receiver for LRS...  using the FrSky protocols, which allows for 16 channels, telemetry, and specific model ID.  (RX will refuse to do anything if you have the wrong model selected on your transmitter)  It has no ETA yet, but will be called the r9m (tx module) and r9 (receiver).

this will be using 868mhz for europe, 915mhz for USA/Canada...   you will have to look and see if 868mhz is allowed in GB.

2) the ChipLRS parts have an advantage for the europeans.. 1) it is made by a guy in russia, so shipping is quicker/cheaper than from china.  2) his prices are reasonably cheap, $20 for a receiver, $65 for a TX/RX combo, not as cheap as OrangeRX, but cheaper than hawkeye.  all of his equipment works with my ersky9x/openTX firmware based transmitters, so soldering a 3 pin connector to the receiver allows me to get full telemetry on the built in LCD display on the transmitter (and voice alerts based on telemetry triggers as well)  even ordering his stuff off ebay, it arrives within 10 days, which is faster than the chinese.

3) you can order from the russian group with any of three frequency choices:  433/458mhz, 868mhz, or 915mhz...  so even if you stay with the 458mhz, ChipLRS might be an option for you.

4) i have ordered a set of Nagoya 915mhz antennas for both the TX and the RX, these should show an improvement over the stock crappy antennas that all these things ship with off the shelf.

A bit of an approaching winter "heads-up" on openLRS and my experiences.

Well I have been operating only on openLRS 458 Mhz  since Spring 2015. My 40 Mhz gear has mostly been "raffled-off" at Club meetings!

openLRS is still rather thin on the ground at the various national meetings I have been to (Bournville, Norwich etc.)  with a maximum of 2 people using it. So we haven't tested its ability to operate 30 sets on frequency-hopping all at once! But no need for crystals, peg-boards and the plaintive cry of "any one on Channel XX etc."

I have only been using the Hobbyking receivers, still available at about $15 (That's about £75 of your English Pounds - feeble joke!)

I have rationalised my use of Telemetry and I only use sensors for battery voltage and depth. I didn't find compass heading very useful or consistent - stray magnetic fields?? Battery voltage readout  is a real boon if you are using Lipo batteries. It is the only reliable system I know of for subs.

This has reduced the "wiring loom" in the sub. The next photo shows the Arduino Nano used to handle the telemetry. Note only 5 wires.



The next 2 photos show the inside of my standard WTC with the telemetry board above the Hobbyking receiver:





I attach the Arduino sketch which works with this. ( I hope that Tim forgives my clumsy "hacksawing" of his software. The original software is on the SubPirates Forum https://www.subpirates.com/showthread.php?5271-Custom-Frsky-Telemetry-Hub/page4  )

The TX option is rather limited for use by others because I am using the FrSky LCD display on my Futaba T9CP . (This LCD display is no longer available but Tim points out that many Tx's have LCD telemetry displays built in.)

I am really pleased with this development thanks to Tim. It is not just a replacement for 40Mhz but it is a significant improvement. (BTW after my early experiments with different antennae I have gone back to the standard commercial ones - they are easily good enough.)

David

// FrSkyTelemetryLRS - Version: Latest
#include <FrSkyTelemetryLRS.h>

/*
 FrSky Telemetry library LRS test
 (c) Pawelsky 20150724
 Not for commercial use
 
 FrSkyTelemetry library modified to deal with LRS format (TTL level serial instead of FrSky format...
 renamed to FrSkyTelemetryLRS
 
 modifications by tim senecal

 Working for voltage input (/2?) on A3 by David Forrest
 A2 gives depth input from pressure sensor.Multiply reading by 3 to give mm of water approx,
 Software from Page 4 of Subpirates
 Improvements? - get actual battery voltage. Calibrate depth sensor. Aug 2017
 
*/

#include "FrSkyTelemetryLRS.h"


#define minraw  272.0
#define maxraw  1015.0
#define minreal  9.0
#define maxreal  158.0
//#define voltsdiv  84.81
//#define voltsdiv  102.40
#define voltsdiv  82.0 ;    // was 67 by RDF for Holland lipo
 
FrSkyTelemetryLRS telemetry; // Create telemetry object

const int analogTemp1 = A0;
const int analogTemp2 = A1;
const int analogAmp = A2;
const int analogVolt = A3;

int mVperAmp = 66;    // use 185 for 5A, 100 for 20A, and 66 for 30A
int ACSoffset = 2500; // offset to remove negative side of range

float amperes = 0;
float voltage = 0;
float actual_rpm = 0;
float calc_speed = 0;
float Temp1;
float Temp2;
float depth;

void setup()
{
 // Configure the telemetry serial port
 telemetry.begin(SERIAL_1);
 
 Serial.begin(9600);
}

void loop()
{
 actual_rpm = 3000;
 calc_speed = 2.258;

 amperes = calc_amperage_val();
 voltage = calc_voltage_val();
   
 telemetry.setFasData(amperes,   // Current consumption in amps
                      voltage);  // Battery voltage in volts
   
 depth = amperes-180;    
 telemetry.setFgsData(depth);  // Fuel level in percent -  unsigned int16 - any value between 0 and 65535
   
 // Set LiPo voltage sensor (FLVS) data (we use two sensors to simulate 8S battery
 // (set Voltage source to Cells in menu to use this data for battery voltage)
 float v1 = voltage/2;
 //float v2 = voltage/2;
 telemetry.setFlvsData(v1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0);  // Cell voltages in volts (cells 1-8). Cells 9-12 are not used in this example
   
 // Set variometer sensor (FVAS) data
 telemetry.setFvasData(depth);  // Altitude in m (can be nevative)
 
 // Set GPS data
 float heading = 125.22;
   
 telemetry.setGpsData(39.847993, -105.104269,  // Latitude and longitude in degrees decimal (positive for N/E, negative for S/W)
                      depth,                   // Altitude in m (can be negative)
                      calc_speed,              // Speed in m/s
                      heading,                 // Course over ground in degrees
                      15, 2, 19,               // Date (year - 2000, month, day)
                      12, 00, 00);             // Time (hour, minute, second) - will be affected by timezone setings in your radio
   
 float accel_angle_x =  2.35;
 float accel_angle_y =  4.25;
 float accel_angle_z =  3.15;
                     
 telemetry.setTasData(accel_angle_x,     // calculated x angle
                      accel_angle_y,     // calculated y angle
                      accel_angle_z);    // calculated z angle
 
 // Set temperature sensor (TEMS) data, two temperatures T1 & T2
   
   // Set temperature sensor (TEMS) data, two temperatures T1 & T2
 Temp1 = calc_temp_val(analogTemp1);
 Temp2 = calc_temp_val(analogTemp2);
 telemetry.setTemsData(Temp1,   // Temperature #1 in degrees Celsuis (can be negative)
                       Temp2);  // Temperature #2 in degrees Celsuis (can be negative)
 
 // Set RPM sensor (RPMS) data
 // (set number of blades to 2 in telemetry menu to get correct rpm value)
 telemetry.setRpmsData(actual_rpm);  // Rotations per minute
 
 // Send the telemetry data, note that the data will only be sent for sensors
 // that had their data set at least once. Also it will only be set in defined
 // time intervals, so not necessarily at every call to send() method.
 telemetry.send();
 
 delay(100);  //delay for 1/10 of a second
}


float fmap (float x, float in_min, float in_max, float out_min, float out_max) {
 return (x - in_min) * (out_max - out_min) / (in_max - in_min) + out_min;
}

float calc_temp_val(int analog_pin){
 uint16_t raw_val;
 float temp, raw_float;
 
 temp = 0;
 raw_val = analogRead(analog_pin);
//  raw_val = 1023 - raw_val;
 raw_float = raw_val;
 temp = fmap(raw_val, minraw, maxraw, minreal, maxreal);
 
//  Serial.print("raw temp: ");
//  Serial.print(analog_pin);
//  Serial.print(" ");
//  Serial.println(raw_val);
 
 return temp;
}

float calc_voltage_val(){
 int RawValue = analogRead(analogVolt);
 voltage = RawValue;
 
//  Serial.print("raw volt: ");
//  Serial.println(RawValue);
 voltage = voltage / voltsdiv; // Gets you adjusted Volts
 
 return voltage;
}

float calc_amperage_val(){
 int RawValue = analogRead(analogAmp);
 Serial.print("raw amps: ");
 Serial.println(RawValue);
 
 float mVoltage = RawValue;
 mVoltage = mVoltage / 1024.0;
 mVoltage = mVoltage * 5000; // Gets you mV 5000 is VCC for 5v arduino
 Serial.print("mVolts: ");
 Serial.println(mVoltage);
 //Next 2 lines by RDF to output raw amps
 //amperes = abs(((mVoltage - ACSoffset) / mVperAmp));
 amperes = RawValue;
 
 Serial.print("Input on A2: ");
 Serial.println(amperes);
 
 return amperes;
}

I too appear to be a lone wolf at the majority of meetings where submarines are around....  i have not yet met anyone actively using the 433mhz or 915mhz equipment besides myself here in the states.

at the last fun run i traveled to (Golden Gate Park in San Francisco California, September 16 & 17)  I took 3 submarines, two running on 915mhz ChipLRS equipment (Delta and a Moebius Skipjack), 1 running on 433mhz, using a combo of DTF-UHF and Brotronics micro 4ch receiver (SWM blueback).

i did get my hands on a thunder tiger pump, and rebuilt the delta's pump, so it now is working as expected.  I have also found that the 915mhz equipment works well enough that i will probably move over to that, unless something unexpected comes up, or the specific model works "better" on 433mhz

like you, i find that the only real data i need to "help" me run my sub is voltage and signal strength.  the rest are purely luxury items.  i do like the pressure sensor, as well as the RPM, but they aren't necessary.

I have not yet had the time to test the new FrSky brand 915mhz equipment, but it has arrived, and i have looked at it to make sure it binds, etc.   need to install it in the delta to test it.

Looking back at your post before last and the use of 868 Mhz in the UK. It doesn't seem to be available:

http://www.ukrcc.org/40mhz.html

So it is 458 or nothing for us here.

You make the very good point about signal strength being an important part of telemetry. I use the TX module sounder all the time but muted with a bit of tape stuck on it to avoid annoying my fellows at the pond side!

I realise that if we had been marketing this technology again we should have pitched it as an improvement rather than as a 40Mhz replacement.

It would seem that most model submariners are a bit conservative and will cling on to 40Mhz until their crystals fracture!

David

PS Just made a mention of openLRS on the SubCommittee forum. It can only help.

due to demand, i made 3 videos on how to configure the ChipLRS brand of 433/458 mhz equipment. they have a few quirks of their own that don't seem to get covered by more generic OpenLRSng videos...

how to bind and set failsafe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50mAgYoCL7M
how to set up and use the configurator, with specific details for ChipLRS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp3fm-oeQrU
a quick video showing simple telemetry with OpenLRSng and ersky9x: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw9wOFiG8zE

if there are any questions, ask, and hopefully we can find an answer, maybe with a matching video.

david f wrote:....

PS Just made a mention of openLRS on the SubCommittee forum. It can only help.

i have been mentioning it there since 2014... doesn't seem to help...

david f wrote:Looking back at your post before last and the use of 868 Mhz in the UK. It doesn't seem to be available:

http://www.ukrcc.org/40mhz.html

So it is 458 or nothing for us here.

did a quick and dirty google search, and found a pdf put out by "Ofcom"

Ofcom UK Frequency Allocation:

High band devices
The high band (868–870 MHz) is primarily used by wireless alarm systems,
including fire, intruder and social alarms which are each subject to different
operational and technical requirements. The band is subdivided further into a
number of sub-bands, based primarily on technical characteristics such as power
and duty cycle. Parts of the band are specifically identified for alarm systems,
although alarms may also operate in the part of the band identified for non-specific
devices. One of the alarm sub-bands is identified specifically for social alarms.
Underlay systems may utilise the whole 863–870 MHz band and typically deploy
spread spectrum or other wideband RF technologies. Applications are non-specific
and may include any of the applications associated specifically with the low, mid and
high bands.
Apart from the three types of alarm system already identified (i.e. fire, intruder and
social alarms), a number of other applications take advantage of the non-specific aspect of the regulations. These applications include home/office automation, access control, remote controllers, medical, telecare, smart meters, telemetry
and automotive."

emphasis on content is mine.


defining what "remote controllers" means in this context is unknown by me, but definitely needs to be clarified. I also have no idea what "Ofcom" is or what its purpose in life is.