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Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN)

Tom(ADMIN): AMS Forum Owner; Posts : 3002
Join date : 2010-11-05
Age : 60
Location : Nevada, USA

Post n°1

Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN) on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:07 am

This is how my radio and electronic equipment is laid out on the tray in the wtc for the Biber...but I'm a touch worried about everything being in such close proximity, getting electrical interference from one unit to another, etc.

The motor will have the correct suppressors fitted, as will the ballast pump motor. The main power battery will be fitted externally up in the bows, no internal switches will be fitted, I'll just be using the connector to the battery as the main on/off connection via a set of Tamiya plug/socket leads.

What do you think, chaps?

thegrimreaper

thegrimreaper: Guest; Posts : 119
Join date : 2010-12-01
Age : 60
Location : Ellesmere Port

Post n°2

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

thegrimreaper on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:05 pm

After looking at your picture Richard I have a few questions myself for you now

1.Ballast pump controler ? apart from the obviouse what is this for I have my pump just connected to a switch

2.Fuse power indicator board ? I have an inline fuse for my motor am I missing something should I have something else fused ?

3.Power distribution board ? to distribute power to ??

answers might be obviouse to long time builders but I am still learning the black art of the hobby

regards Mark

Tom(ADMIN)

Tom(ADMIN): AMS Forum Owner; Posts : 3002
Join date : 2010-11-05
Age : 60
Location : Nevada, USA

Post n°3

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN) on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:17 pm

thegrimreaper wrote:After looking at your picture Richard I have a few questions myself for you now

1.Ballast pump controler ? apart from the obviouse what is this for I have my pump just connected to a switch

My pump works both ways Mark, so the controller is really just an esc...I can either pump at full speed or just trickle a couple of drops of water into the tank for fine control.

2.Fuse power indicator board ? I have an inline fuse for my motor am I missing something should I have something else fused ?

This is a little electronic device that is not only a fuse board, but also tells me which direction the current from the main power source is flowing and where it's going.

3.Power distribution board ? to distribute power to ??

This takes power from the main power battery and distributes it to the esc, the rx, ballast pump controller, the pump itself, servos, leveller, etc...all independantly fused.

answers might be obviouse to long time builders but I am still learning the black art of the hobby

Same as that mate, I've always lashed up my electronic installations, but this time I thought I'd do it properly and get the right stuff made for the job.

regards Mark

Richard

thegrimreaper

thegrimreaper: Guest; Posts : 119
Join date : 2010-12-01
Age : 60
Location : Ellesmere Port

Post n°4

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

thegrimreaper on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:35 pm

Ahh right thanks for the quick reply Richard I only asked because I am trying to get HWMBO to let me have a go at scratch building I can hit her with answers to anything she asks by letting her see how its done on here

Regards Mark

Tom(ADMIN)

Tom(ADMIN): AMS Forum Owner; Posts : 3002
Join date : 2010-11-05
Age : 60
Location : Nevada, USA

Post n°5

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN) on Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:12 pm

Ooh blimey...be careful she don't return the compliment mate!!!

Deep Diver (Fred)

Deep Diver (Fred): AMS member; Posts : 256
Join date : 2010-11-07
Age : 71
Location : Peacehaven East Sussex

Post n°6

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Deep Diver (Fred) on Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:37 am

Sorry to ask Dick but you know me, why do you have a fuse on the ballast pump? if the fuse blows how does the fall safe pump the water out? I know it all depends on the pump that you are using as to whether the trapped air in the ballast tank will push the water out, also if the fuse to the R/X goes you have lost all control of your boat.

I for one do not use any fuses just like the the old boy did.

O.K now you tell me that only some of the components are fused and that the main one's are not, so I will just get my coat on.

Tom(ADMIN)

Tom(ADMIN): AMS Forum Owner; Posts : 3002
Join date : 2010-11-05
Age : 60
Location : Nevada, USA

Post n°7

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN) on Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:44 am

Mornin' Fred...

Good point...the answer is: well, everything is how it came, the fuses were there when the stuff was built. I've never used fuses before....if it goes pop, it goes pop, and when the time comes I'll probably either do away with them or substitute them for heavier ones that won't blow. That seems silly I know...why fit a fuse in the first place?

Nigel raised the same point earlier on, doing away with them seems to be the favourite course to take.

david f

david f: AMS Treasurer; Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 69
Location : Cumbria

Post n°8

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

david f on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:40 pm

I am a supporter of fuses!

One big one at the battery end. So big (20A or so) that it will only blow if you get a complete short that starts to melt cables - I use Lipos, you see.

I do sometimes use some little tiny circuit breakers (From Maplins some time ago.) that will reset after a few seconds and trigger on 2A or 5A.

But I can also see the no - fuse argument.

To answer the original question, Richard re: interference. You will need to suck it and see, really.

Boats behave very differently on the water as on the bench.

(My text has gone red for some reason!)

(Font colour edited)

david f

david f: AMS Treasurer; Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 69
Location : Cumbria

Post n°9

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

david f on Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:22 pm

I was interested to see the mention of ballast pumping in both directions.

I borrowed the idea of the Sheerline pressure pumped system years ago, because I think it is really good.

But some years ago I modified it to pump in and out. (using a home brewed electronic switcher which also operates the pinch valve)I did this because I had problems in losing my compressed air bubble once or twice - with sinking results!

The red plastic pumps can draw water out of the pressure tank even down to a slight vacuum.

I believe that the current Sheerline system still uses pumping one way only.

Is this true and does anyone have any experiences (Maybe a question for Mark?)

David

(Sorry I seem to be posting in Red!)

(Font colour edited)

Tom(ADMIN)

Tom(ADMIN): AMS Forum Owner; Posts : 3002
Join date : 2010-11-05
Age : 60
Location : Nevada, USA

Post n°10

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN) on Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:33 pm

As far as I know David, the Sheerline system does use one way pumping, with the pinch valve inline...a nice easy way of doing things.

I chose to use the two way system with the idea of being able to trim the boat by being able to pump just a dribble in or out, as needed, to keep it level.

But I'm told it won't work (say no more) that's why I had the tank going up and down in the bath quicker than a bride's nightie on her wedding night...

david f

david f: AMS Treasurer; Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 69
Location : Cumbria

Post n°11

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

david f on Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:24 pm

You should know this by now Richard!

Apparently on the best theoretical principles (or maybe a certain person found it on the Internet!!) the Bumble Bee cannot fly.

Luckily the Bumble Bee does not know this, so it keeps on flying!

thegrimreaper

thegrimreaper: Guest; Posts : 119
Join date : 2010-12-01
Age : 60
Location : Ellesmere Port

Post n°12

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

thegrimreaper on Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:24 am

You are correct David the Sheerline range of subs uses a one way pump to put water into the ballast tank relying on a pinch valve to stop the reverse flow of water from the said ballast tank. My Akula is my first static dive sub and when it came to setting up the servo to operate the pinch valve and the micro switch for the pump just by following the destructions supplied it was simples.I have my failsafe set up on the servo operating the pinch valve if their is a lose of radio signal then the sub surfaces.The system is simple but works.

As to running a sub in salt water I would if that was all their was to run in BUT would always put my sub in the bath with fresh water to rinse the sub off and to flush the ballast tank,then re grease everything that moves.

Regards Mark

why is the text red ???? edited to correct to black

Tom(ADMIN)

Tom(ADMIN): AMS Forum Owner; Posts : 3002
Join date : 2010-11-05
Age : 60
Location : Nevada, USA

Post n°13

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN) on Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:28 am

I used to run U-117 out in the sea, but as Mark says, she would always get washed down after use, and then everything flushed through with fresh water and a drop of oil added to all things that moved.

As to the text colour...I haven't a clue! I put it down to a software hiccup...

david f

david f: AMS Treasurer; Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 69
Location : Cumbria

Post n°14

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

david f on Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:41 am

I am very wary of salt water. As a lad (some time ago - now, now, Mark!) I operated my USS Halibut at Southport in what turned out to be salt water. My sub expired shortly therafter!

thegrimreaper

thegrimreaper: Guest; Posts : 119
Join date : 2010-12-01
Age : 60
Location : Ellesmere Port

Post n°15

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

thegrimreaper on Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:20 pm

Ahh Well David when you was a lad (wasn`t everything in black and white then lol) the pond at Southport would have been on the front close to the prom now I am not 100% sure but I think that pond went in the redevelopment of the prom many years ago. The Southport model boat club had a purpose built pond built which they very generously allow the general public to use as long as a few rules (by-laws) are followed. Also not to sound cheeky David but since you or I was a lad I think the development of parts used has probably increased in quality and workmanship very markedly

Regards Mark

david f

david f: AMS Treasurer; Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 69
Location : Cumbria

Post n°16

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

david f on Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:56 am

Yes to that!!

I seem to remember that the Halibut drive motor had an O ring seal but the compartment was fitted with a drain plug - never a good sign!

Hermann

Hermann: AMS member; Posts : 116
Join date : 2011-07-03
Location : at home, near Bremen (Germany)

Post n°17

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Hermann on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:33 pm

david f wrote:I am a supporter of fuses!

So am I.

Fuses are intended for protection agains short circuit and fire. Considering that a battery can deliver currents of many 10 amps when shorted even cables of bigger diameters may start to glow and set the isolation on fire (and - perhaps - the complete model eventually). You can't exclude events of shorts completely, cable isolations can be injured by sharp edges, vibrations or shock impacts, or by component failure (e.g. motor breakdown). Then a fuse will at least protect the cables from burning. Of course the fuse rating must be matched to the cable cross section and the maximum operational currents under worst case conditions. Then a fuse won't blow in faultfree operation but in case of shorts. Of course fuses shouldn't be a source of failures,so fuse holders must provide reliable contacts (or fuses, especially the flat car fuses, can be soldered directly to the cables).

In my models I have a main fuse directly attached to the battery before the main power switch and also fuses with matched ratings for the different branches of the power distribution (receiver supply, servo power supply, diving system supply etc.)

Kind regards
Hermann

david f

david f: AMS Treasurer; Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 69
Location : Cumbria

Post n°18

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

david f on Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:00 am

Yes. I think fuses are even more important now that Lipos are used more (now in 3 of my subs) since they can deliver really high currents.

I would agree that you need a main fuse that blows just before cables start melting.

And welcome to the Forum Hermann!

David

Tom(ADMIN)

Tom(ADMIN): AMS Forum Owner; Posts : 3002
Join date : 2010-11-05
Age : 60
Location : Nevada, USA

Post n°19

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Tom(ADMIN) on Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:11 am

hmm...so what happens if your main power fuse blows whilst the boat is submerged? You're stuck on the bottom with no power..

Ok, yes, I know...fit a David F pinger!

Hermann

Hermann: AMS member; Posts : 116
Join date : 2011-07-03
Location : at home, near Bremen (Germany)

Post n°20

Re: Interference, fuses etc.

Hermann on Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Hello David

and thank you for your welcome. It’s an interesting forum and there is a lot to discover…

(I only beg to excuse my mistakes when posting – I’m not a native English speaker)

Hello Richard,

among submarine modellers here in Germany this theme was discussed also and some collegues just mentioned the same argument – they worried about a blown fuse when the model was submerged.
But honestly spoken – what would be the benefit if fuses were omitted?
A fuse with a rating matched to the cable size and worst case operational current won’t blow without serious reason. If it blows you will have a severe fault situation where more damage would occur if the fuse was omitted. May be the cables would melt and act like a fuse by themselves. Even worse scenarios could happen, you don’t need much fantasy to imagine. And it is not sure that your sub is able to resurface when you have a short situation on board (causing a large voltage drop across your battery).

It seems more useful to build up a power distribution with a main battery fuse (slow blow, ratings perhaps 20amps or 30amps, e.g. car fuses) and individual fuses for the different branches of the distribution with lower, bur also matched ratings. So if your propulsion motor would stall and blow his fuse (instead of burning off by himself), the main battery fuse would remain intact and also the branch for the power supply of your diving system. The model could resurface then (otherwise, with burnt cabling probably not).

I must confess that I hadn’t spent much time by thinking about this theme – in former times I had also no fuses onboard. But when the years go by (now I am an old lad of 56 years) and you get more experience and knowledge about things that went wrong I’ve become more careful…

Kind regards
Hermann