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    St Albans Sub Aqua Club

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    Wheelerdealer(Ramesh)
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    St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:15 am

    Organised by www.diveintomodelsubmarines.co.uk and open to all.

    [Edit - Following subsequent discussion, I can confirm that there are no swimmers sharing the pool at this event or any other submarine event at St Albans, and that these events are NOT organised by the AMS, but are supported the AMS
    Monies contributed go to the hire of the fascilities, any amount indicated in a flyer is the maximum contribution- if there are sufficient attendees as in the previous events, the contribution will be significantly less. These are 'not for profit events'. These events are organised by www.diveintomodelsubmarines.co.uk ]


    The pool is drained over the winter and we help give it a clean & patch up the leaks (too expensive to get a new lining) just before its filled again for the summer. If its a dry summer and the water table is low it takes longer to fill due to water leaks. Cost nearly £5000 to of water per season I've been told. There are always friendly divers about if you dont want to don the shorts if your boat refuses to surface. Plenty of tables to rest your boats and a onsite bar as well.









    Last edited by Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:09 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    david f
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  david f on Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:16 am

    Hi Ramesh,
    Is it available at dates other than the weekend Dive-In event?
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    Wheelerdealer(Ramesh)
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:35 am

    Hi David, yes it is but that would have to be by separate negotiation with the management as the pool is used for scuba training. And I suspect the pool hire costs would be higher as some of it at the moment is paid with manual labour!
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    david f
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  david f on Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:55 pm

    It is useful to know.
    I know that Reading Sub Aqua Club had an outdoor training pool but the upkeep became too expensive for them.
    Many thanks.

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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Guest on Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:34 pm

    The date for the Summer Dive-in has been carefully chosen.

    Holding the event earlier is out of the question, because the pool isn't filled by then. If you hold it later in the Summer, you tend to clash with other model making events and Summer holidays. In addition the Sub Aqua club holds many social events during the July and August months.

    However there is another important factor. The pool is unfiltered, and as a consequence tends to go green and increasingly murky as the season progresses.

    The original sand bed filtering system was removed when the club took on the facility some thirty years ago, and this space is now occupied by the clubs meeting room.

    By holding it in the first two weeks of June, the water clarity is at its best, and so far, fingers crossed, we have enjoyed excellent weather at the past two events.

    Hire of the facility is possible, however we get a hefty discount and the usual costs of hiring this venue are usually a good deal more.

    I've made the event a two day affair this year to make it more attractive to those who have a long way to come. As such it's a gamble which I hope will pay off by getting a respectable attendance over the weekend.

    Andy
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    david f
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  david f on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:38 pm

    Will you be holding the SubCommitteeGB Annual General Meeting there this summer, Andy?

    (I see that an AGM is mentioned on the SubCommittee website and I thought I'd ask you while your SubCommittee Avatar is still up there!)

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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Guest on Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:13 pm

    Nope. Sub Com GB don't have an AGM.

    The Dive-ins are independent of any club or society, attended by members of both the Sub Committee, AMS and anyone interested in the hobby.

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    david f
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  david f on Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:48 pm

    That's interesting, Andy.
    So you don't have an AGM, or accounts, or audit and yet you are taking money.
    You don't even have an organisation by the sound of it - just unnamed individuals.
    Best of luck with that one everyone,in my personal opinion!
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    Wheelerdealer(Ramesh)
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:38 am

    Yes that's about the gist of it- there is no club, no 'organisation', no members, no membership fee, no committee and no AGM. Just friends with a common interest who share the pool hire costs on the day. Its open to anyone who wants to come along, even just to watch.

    The amount on the flyers are the maximum anyone would contribute towards the hire costs on the day, even if only a few people turned up. If turn out is good, as it has been recently, then the hire cost are divided amongst a greater number of people and the contribution is much lower. Of course at venues where there is no hire cost, there is no contribution.

    It certainly a concept with has proved popular with many new people, including children, introduced to the hobby. And recent events have seen more subs and participants than any gathering in the South East (and possibly the rest of the country) in recent times.
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    nigele(ADMIN)2
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  nigele(ADMIN)2 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:50 pm

    I might be wrong but I don't think David was refering to the dive in's, I dont see any isues with the dive in's I think they are a great,and very good for our hobby,the only thing I would advise is think very carefully before you go putting a submarine in the water with the public,I say this for two reasons,one no inssurance company is going to be to happy about it,there is on most policys a stippulation that says"it is up to the individual to decide what constitutes a safe opperatting enviroment"or words to that effect I dont believe for one second that this could be considered a safe enviroment do you,point two having submarines in the water with video recorders along with the public is a total no no,in fact any kind of photography in that enviromment would be highly questionable and ill advised,going back to the first point I dont think that this is a quetion of if there is an aceident I really do belive it more a question of WHEN,so I would erge you to think very long and hard on the posible outcome of sutch events.
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:27 pm

    I hear what your saying Nigel. For the two Dive In's scheduled for 2011 in Brockwell and St Alban,s we have exclusive use of the pool with no member of the public using the pool for swimming. Its always Andy's intention to get exclusive use of the facilities.
    Of the 10 or so previous Dive In's only on 2 occasions were there swimmers (on one occation to our surprise). The pool was roped off by the management and one side was designated for swimmers and the other for submarines. The swimming pool is also adequately insured and we are hiring their facilities.

    Point correctly made about the cameras and I wont be using mine when there are swimmers about again - though cameras used by the swimmers/other visiting public and pool management for their publicity shots and personal use on the day far out numbered anything we had.
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  nigele(ADMIN)2 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:27 pm

    So let me get this stait,youre saying it is not nesesary for individuals to have insurance because the pool management has agreed to accept liabillity should there be an accedent ???.
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    Wheelerdealer(Ramesh)
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:57 pm

    nigele wrote:So let me get this stait,youre saying it is not nesesary for individuals to have insurance because the pool management has agreed to accept liabillity should there be an accedent ???.

    No I did not say that. Its always a good idea to have insurance. You can get sued for stepping on someone toe by mistake whilst waiting for the tube train these days. I have plenty.
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  nigele(ADMIN)2 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:03 pm

    So we are back to the same situation,the pool has not agreed to accept liability so individuals need there own insurance wich is fine,until you put your boat in the water with the public, no insurance company will pay out they quite rightly will claim that it is not a safe inviroment to opperate a submarine,and it will be down to the individual,you really need to think hard about events that involve the public and you certainly need to sort out the insurance issue so that eveyone knows where they stand,I would strongly addvise all AMS members to bear this in mind,it is a highly dubious situation and could cause someone a whole heap of money and grief,please dont just try to closs over the points I have raised be responsable and try to resolve the problem or avoid putting on events that put the public in danger,and risk giving our hobby a reputation for being irisponsable.
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    david f
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  david f on Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:19 pm

    Just to clarify the point I was making earlier, the AMS are very keen to encourage members to attend well run pool events.

    But I have been watching the organisation of both the Lido and the Dive-In with a growing sense of unease over the last few months.

    We should perhaps have intervened some months ago but we did not wish to be labelled as "kill joys."

    I have seen you and Andy deliberately blurring the responsibilty for these events to the extent that AMS members could be confused as to who is actually running the event. You are also collecting money. This could be seen as trading under the guise of.

    Potential liability is something else that you don't seem to have considered adequately. This falls into a number of areas:

    -Insurance (I know Nigel is worried about this one and DO also read the thread on this Forum.)

    -Pool runs for model submarines are rare things partly because you must not run model submarines with swimmers and/or members of the public. AND THIS HAS ACTUALLY BEEN HAPPENING!

    -Another reason for not admitting members of the general public is that a number of submarines are now fitted with underwater cameras. You are allowing ANYONE to attend these events and this could have very undesirable consequences. (Children being photographed??)

    So we encourage you to please go ahead with these events but think through the consequences. Andy has a very "cavalier" attitude which can be very useful but could result in a real problem for you as individuals AND for our hobby.

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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Guest on Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:03 pm

    I've re-registered here, but only to clear up some points on this thread.

    First of all on the subject of insurance and liability. I expect attendees to take reasonable responsibility for their own actions. Where it is feasible I always let people know if swimmers will be present- those attending can make up their own minds whether they want to come.

    With the exception of one young lad, who attends with his Father, everyone who runs at the Dive-ins is an adult and aware of what they're doing.

    BTW do you check everyones insurance policy at shows etc. Or do you rely on their word? I ask because when I was member of the AMS I ran at many shows and was never asked for insurance, which is just as well, because I didn't have any.

    For my part, I do what I can to ensure that safe running is adhered to, and when we share the pool with swimmers, that everyone stays within the sectioned-off area of the pool and keeps well away. The swimmers present at the Dive-ins are real hardcore (they need to be in those water temperatures) and far from regarding us as a hazard, they welcome us there and are fascinated by what they see. However as Ramesh pointed out, whenever possible I endeavour to book the pool when swimmers will not be present.

    However this does not apply to St Albans, which is what this thread was about.

    This venue is a private facility, there are no swimmers (except Paul Cook- can't keep him out of the water, although we do try).

    Regarding the use of photography, I can find no law against taking pictures or video in a public place of children or otherwise, unless it is considered that you are a nuisance (e.g. harassment, breach of the peace), concentrating on specific individuals or breaching the official secrets act.

    If you can find otherwise I would like to see it.

    In regards to 'blurring' responsibility, you're going to have to be more specific there, as I haven't a clue what you're on about.

    On the point of my attitude, I don't consider myself to be 'cavalier'. I hold down a responsible job, and if I was such I would quickly find myself collecting my P45.

    Why don't you two get your heads together, find a venue and show us all how it's done. Or at very least make an effort to attend one of my events, because neither of you have been to any of them. Poor show chaps.


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    Wheelerdealer(Ramesh)
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:12 pm

    Once more, in only 2 of pool runs where there any swimmers. Both were sanctioned by the Brockwell Lido, and one of them sprung completely by surprise on the day. I assume, as they organise plenty of water based events there at the same time (not all swimming); the Lido know about what ever regulations there are about these things and that it complies with their public liability insurance. All St Albans events have always been submarine only events. All Dive In so far planned for 2011 are submarine exclusive events, so no danger of any swimmers.

    We run these events as a group of friends who chip in to contribute to hire the facilities, akin to a group of friends who chip in to hire an astro pitch for a regular game of 5 aside (something else I part take in once a week!). The premises are gated and are private property.

    david forrest wrote:I have seen you and Andy deliberately blurring the responsibilty for these events to the extent that AMS members could be confused as to who is actually running the event. .

    I don't know why you say this David. In all my post I have said these are organized by www.diveintomodelsubmarines.co.uk What more I can say to make it more clear that these events are not organised by the AMS. Going through the AMS magazines, in the 5years or so I have been a member of the AMS, I have not come across a single event organised by the AMS. Why therefore would any member think that these events would be any different?
    I don't think anyone who as attended, including what must be more than 10% of the AMS membership, has been confused. However should the AMS wish to assist either financially or in any other way, to organise these in a more 'proper' way, I am sure Andy will accept any help.




    Last edited by Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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    nigele(ADMIN)2
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  nigele(ADMIN)2 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:19 pm

    I think that your reply shows exactly the problem,Iam right I am not interested in your addvise or sugestions,dont care about insurance,quite happy to take photo's of semi dressed people regardless of there right to privace,no point in holding a debate with you never going to go anywhere,so this is what I will say to you DO NOT POST ANY EVENTS ON HERE THAT HAVE THE PUBLIC IN THE WATER AT THE SAME TIME AS BOATS, I will also say to you that the AMS fully support's the dive ins as long as they do not involve the issues that have already been addressed,as for david and I getting together and showing you how its done we did get together and we appointed someone that we felt would be the best person to run the lido dive in,someone sensable, trustworthy,honorable, clearly we never found the right person.
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  nigele(ADMIN)2 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:49 pm

    Ramesh,yes you are quite correct the AMS does'not organise events and to the best of my knowledge never has,we have allways been invited to attend more shows than we can cover so the situation has never arisen,the only time we even considered it is when we where offered the lido, but after some debate we decided to give it to Andy to run as it was felt that he would be able to do a better job than we could,the problem for us is that our members are from all over the country and we felt that we would not get enough members to attend to make it viable,and judging by the figures you have quoted that would seem to have been a good decision for all concerned,I do not want this to esculate into some kind of slanging match,I just want you to give serious consideration to the issues I have raised not poo poo them as Andy has done,you two are organising these events and do have a certain obligation to insure that the situation is safe for all concerned,so please dont put boats in the water with people it is inherantly dangerious.
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Wheelerdealer(Ramesh) on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:52 pm

    Thanks Nigel, I will edit the first post to clear up the issues raised, namely that there will be no members of the public or swimmers in the pool at St Albans and that the event is not organised by the AMS.
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  nigele(ADMIN)2 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:12 pm

    Ramesh, thats not really nessecary it does not apply to st Albans,its fine and sound like it will be a great event.

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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Guest on Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:05 pm

    Thanks for the free advertising- by far the most popular thread on this forum. :cheers:
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    nigele(ADMIN)2
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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  nigele(ADMIN)2 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:24 pm

    Thats no problem Andy,we are happy to help as long as it does not end up with our members in court,or the public in Hospital,Have a nice Christmas.

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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Guest on Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:35 am

    Thank you, I will endeavour to.

    I contacted Walker Midgeley, who operate comprehensive model insurance policies, and are well known in the modelling world.

    I spoke with their managing director, Tony Wood, and gave him an outline of what we do at the pool runs, and explained to him that sometimes we have to run with members of the public in the pool, but that the two are separated by a cordon.

    He told me that under these conditions, anyone with a policy with them would be fully covered for any personal and public liability arising from an incident.

    Now to add further to this, I will add that I would not permit very fast submarines in the pool when shared with swimmers, or subs with spikes or items that might cause injury (so a nautilus is confined to drydock!). I think it's reasonable to say, the greatest hazard to pool users, are other swimmers.

    Anyway, if the AMS still considers this a hazard and doesn't want them publicised, then that is your choice. But I want to reassure those attending that adequate cover is available for themselves at these events whether there are swimmers present or not.

    Andy

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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

    Post  Tom(ADMIN) on Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:49 am

    Andy, one question if I may be so bold?

    You say that subs with spikes or items that may cause injury won't be allowed to run...how about propellors on nuke type boats? My Dragonfish has a seven blade scimitar prop fitted now..how does that stand? I'm worried that a prop like that can cause a lot of damage to human flesh..I know, I caught a finger in the prop of the Patrick Henry, that hurt.

    Richard.

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    Re: St Albans Sub Aqua Club

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